Does typing without frameworks mean not being a professional?

Question

css

I just got rejected by a client. He asked if I would use frameworks. I said that the site is small and that it would be better to write everything from 0. He said that only beginner maximalists do this.
Well, the question is actually, I really do front-end for only 4 months, I tried a bunch of everything, and I tried to typeset with a bootstrap and, in my opinion, writing from 0 is much faster.

Answer 1

To be a professional means to know and correctly apply the necessary tools for the most effective solution of the problem. And also DO NOT use if it is not necessary.

Answer 2

Beginners do just the opposite, ie. they sculpt the same bootstrap everywhere, regardless of whether it is really needed there.
The fact is that css frameworks are more of a prototyping tool than the basis of a project.
Their use is justified in a project without design, some kind of technical layout, admin panel, etc. But in most projects with a unique design, they are simply out of place.
Make up from scratch, and don't worry. This will only be a plus, you will gain experience.

Answer 3

We always make up from the layout.
I'm not talking about such a case as building an admin panel from bootstrap components based on a prototype - this is just the most correct use of it.
So we are very dependent on the layout.
If the designer bothered to at least use the grid, then the grid and the breakpoints system from Botstrap (version 4, in scss) will help us a lot. If the designer is an idiot, nothing will help.
My project template has grid and breakpoints by default. As well as some helper classes.
As for the rest of the components (typography, tables, forms, buttons, etc.) - one should always ask what is easier / better: to style your button or override the existing ones.
To what extent will the classes offered by the bootstrap fit into the overall style of the project?
To what extent will we facilitate the support of the project by converting half of what we took from the bootstrap to the design, and writing 2/3 of the project with our own styles?
I saw how
bootstrap.min.css
bootstrap-theme.min.css
bootstrap.min.js is put in by default,
then redefining and adding everything that is needed in a separate file. The whole mother of his bootstrap.min.js from which only the sandwich menu was used!
I saw a whole collection of crutches wrapped with duct tape so that it was like in design.
And what, as far as I am a beginner and maximalist with my library of mixins (documented, including from bootstrap), scss files, spaced into blocks and a BEM approach to class naming?
With neat css at the output and instruction-recommendation how and why to use preprocessors anyway.
Thus, I join the answers of Sergey and Serj-One . Each task has its own tool.
And it is easy to maintain not so much the code where the framework was used (especially in the context of css), but the code where the head was used.
PS Here is another worthy opinion for example: https://gist.github.com/iAdramelk/d328b73c72cab92ef95f

Answer 4

I agree with the customer, a student works for us, they gave us the layout, they immediately told me to use bootstrap. He resisted for a long time and also wanted to write everything from scratch, as a result, his pagination was 100 lines, and mine was 30. I spent less time on this and the code is cleaner, i.e. the next developer does not need to understand the footcloth of someone else's code. plus normalization is enabled in bootstrap.
Writing from scratch is the stone age, so will we ride bicycles? Or will we fly on a rocket?

Answer 5

By building on a framework, you run the risk of writing maintainable and understandable code.
And most importantly - you will download extra 100-200kb of data - an unaffordable luxury.
The frameworks are written by students - beginners who themselves cannot lay out the grid.
Narrow-sharpened solutions have always ruled and will continue to rule.
An additional bonus is that the code you write from scratch will bind the customer to you, since no one will understand your code better than you.
Layout without a framework - for customers!
PS - The customer is, of course, wrong.

Answer 6

IMHO, both on Bootstrap, and with "0" you can both do shit and candy. You could tell the customer what I would do with Bootstrap and take only the grid from him (or "only" something else that would help you not to reinvent the wheel). In any case, we must try to do as the customer wants: he has money, he "orders the music."

Answer 7

I see many people write that with the framework, extra styles are drawn and blah blah blah. Have you been making up with frameworks for a long time? Install the assembler, turn off unnecessary unused components, both in scss and js, override settings in settings files. Add what is missing.
As a result, you get a minimalistic, time-tested and a lot of people, ready to scale result that other specialists can pick up.
The customer answered rudely, but in general he is right.

Answer 8

It would be professional to answer the customer's question: "... will I use frameworks?" - answer: "What do you want?" And then, after he answered that he wants a framework (if the illogicality of this choice for the project is visible), he will agree with his choice, but at the same time correctly explain and indicate what the minuses will be.
If this did not convince him, then decide to do as he wants, or simply refuse.

Answer 9

If you want a framework, do it. If it takes longer, then the price is appropriate. I try to use for myself. Who knows what will be needed tomorrow...

Answer 10

If this is a service, then perhaps the customer is thinking about the future of the project. About its support and extensibility.

Answer 11

And why make up all the styles from scratch, if it’s easier to take the same bootstrap as a basis and build a website on it. So you were rightly rejected - the fact that it seemed to you that it was easier to typeset from scratch than on bootstrap suggests that you do not know how to work with someone else's code and delve into the documentation. And when they give you a ready-made site / project for revision, let's say that you will also rewrite it from scratch?

Answer 12

As the layout from scratch develops its own technology for templating some similar actions, such as snippets, and this will be more optimal than some kind of framework, in which the output will be a lot of uselessness, which eventually turn into garbage and unnecessarily increase the load time, and pulling out only what is needed can be more difficult than using your pre-prepared snippets. Of course, if this is some kind of landing page, or a small site. If this is some kind of site on a CMS, then the use of a framework can be justified, since such a project is expected to develop in the future. And for statics it is not justified.

Answer 13

Without frameworks, they either make up a pro (with appropriate good budgets).
Or beginners who do not even know such words.
Or those who are not allowed to master the frameworks by laziness, stupidity, pride, or, conversely, and so good earnings - who are then able to take extra money from the customer when it turns out that something does not work in version Y of browser X that will be fixed for separate money.
The client is smart. For most projects, having a framework is highly desirable.
But the client is stupid. He should have indicated this immediately in the formulation of the problem. Not all performers are so wise, someone needs a hint.

Answer 14

If it is fundamentally important for the customer that the project was created using the framework, he should indicate this in the initial conditions - how the customer will continue to use the resulting product is his business.
If a developer positions himself as capable in frameworks, then he should give the customer options on what to do - with corresponding costs, for example.
In the case of negotiations, the developer should not try to prove that he knows better how to do it, but in case of disputable situations, argue the proposed methods of work - how they will be useful for the customer: faster, cheaper, better, free from the problems of other methods, etc.
In any case, the customer should not switch to the personality of a potential performer, speaking of maximalistic newcomers - this is beside the point.
In the case presented, it seems that the customer just learned the cool word "framework" and knows that they write a lot on it and it's good / fast / cheaper - a kind of silver bullet from expensive freelancers. =j Therefore - what for such a customer. Professionalism does not consist in the ability to please everyone and everything, not to mention the unproductiveness of such cooperation. I would also probably send dozens of edits. Every week.

Answer 15

If you take a whole framework, then no, there will be a lot of superfluous, of course it is better to write small projects yourself, but you can take a grid from the framework, for example, and this will simplify life. So, the customer is fundamentally wrong.

Answer 16

There are almost 7 thousand lines in bootstrap.css ...
Moreover, only a few dozen lines are usually enough for the grid.
The rest of the code in the bootstrap is "spare", styles for tables, lists, buttons, and so on, other things that are rarely identical to bootstrap in individual design. This means that you will need to delete / rewrite a bunch of code ... or leave it as it is, let it load - everyone now has unlimited high-speed channels ... ( correctly, this is sarcasm )
bootstrap exists) the framework is easier only for those who know this framework, while well-written, neat code is easy to maintain for both those who know it and those who do not own it.
The customer, of course, wants the best, but is he a developer himself? Why does he think that - sorry for the tautology - he knows better what is best?
He comes to the doctor and also tells him how best to treat him?
The customer hires a developer and has the right to demand high-quality, maintained code from him. But how the developer will achieve this - he decides, based on the task. Yes, the code in the bootstrap is of high enough quality, but if 2/3 of this code is rewritten, stuffed with a bunch of crutches, there will be little sense in the fact that this is a framework.

Answer 17

the topic is suitable)
if the workbench does not know how to "write code with his hands", the use of bootstrap and other "accelerating" technologies is only to the detriment of business.
from the "fierce" champions of technology then there are oh so many problems

Answer 18

When I was new I used Bootstrap. Later I started using Сompass CSS with SASS preprocessor (*.sass) for layout. Speed ​​and quality are top notch. Writing from scratch in bare CSS is a perversion. I do not recommend using Bootstrap as it clutters up HTML with a bunch of classes.

Answer 19

Do not deal with customers who are interested in HOW you will do your job. Deal with customers who do NOT care how you do it, but it is important that everything is done ON TIME and QUALITATIVELY. By and large, when working with customers, not a single site is written from scratch. Many programmers, if they do NOT use frameworks or other crutches, use their own old or other people's scripts when creating a new site, sometimes they can correct them or upgrade them more thoroughly, depending on what tasks the customer sets. It is more correct in your case to put the question this way - is it appropriate to use frameworks and all sorts of engines when creating a site. Appropriate, why not. When creating typical sites. Sooner or later you will receive a serious order with puzzling tasks from the customer. And here your brain, sharpened to work only on crutches, will fail. Trust me. Nothing trains the brain to solve puzzles like the invention of bicycles. At school, they are forced to solve problems in mathematics, which have long been solved by millions of other schoolchildren. And not just forced. So start a bicycle invention factory. If there is a ready-made solution to the problem on the network, try to solve it yourself first - then compare. Only you need to train your brain not on orders, but on your training sites. Create similar sites like 30-50 pieces of any complexity, fill the bumps, test them yourself for bugs and security, ask your friends to test them. Find an experienced programmer, let him give a conclusion to your sites. But when he gives a positive summary - only then take on orders. At school, they are forced to solve problems in mathematics, which have long been solved by millions of other schoolchildren. And not just forced. So start a bicycle invention factory. If there is a ready-made solution to the problem on the network, try to solve it yourself first - then compare. Only you need to train your brain not on orders, but on your training sites. Create similar sites like 30-50 pieces of any complexity, fill the bumps, test them yourself for bugs and security, ask your friends to test them. Find an experienced programmer, let him give a conclusion to your sites. But when he gives a positive summary - only then take on orders. At school, they are forced to solve problems in mathematics, which have long been solved by millions of other schoolchildren. And not just forced. So start a bicycle invention factory. If there is a ready-made solution to the problem on the network, try to solve it yourself first - then compare. Only you need to train your brain not on orders, but on your training sites. Create similar sites like 30-50 pieces of any complexity, fill the bumps, test them yourself for bugs and security, ask your friends to test them. Find an experienced programmer, let him give a conclusion to your sites. But when he gives a positive summary - only then take on orders. If there is a ready-made solution to the problem on the network, try to solve it yourself first - then compare. Only you need to train your brain not on orders, but on your training sites. Create similar sites like 30-50 pieces of any complexity, fill the bumps, test them yourself for bugs and security, ask your friends to test them. Find an experienced programmer, let him give a conclusion to your sites. But when he gives a positive summary - only then take on orders. If there is a ready-made solution to the problem on the network, try to solve it yourself first - then compare. Only you need to train your brain not on orders, but on your training sites. Create similar sites like 30-50 pieces of any complexity, fill the bumps, test them yourself for bugs and security, ask your friends to test them. Find an experienced programmer, let him give a conclusion to your sites. But when he gives a positive summary - only then take on orders.

Answer 20

Everything is just "Do you want checkers or go?".
How professionals think:

• A locomotive flying on rails (we were taught this way, everything else is wrong);
  
• It is impossible to move off the track (after all, a steam locomotive can only go along a track);
  
• Stops only on schedule (stubbornly and to the point of exhaustion, because it is written in the rules).
  

How sane people think:

• There are different ways;
  
• If the path is inconvenient, we turn to another path;
  
• We need rest, take a break.