Bootstrap. Argument with a programmer, how to convince?

Question

css

Recently a new team leader (backender) came to our company, for the first time I meet such a stubborn person.
I work as a layout designer, the project is large, 70+ screens, only the grid is used from Bootstrap, and that one is already custom.
A redesign is brewing, the team leader rested on the use of all Bootstrap, arguing that it would be easier for him and other guys to work with the layout in case of my absence, well, everything is already ready for unification. He has already arbitrarily introduced some components.
I try to explain to him that this is not our case, we have a unique design that is not limited to one type of one component. And static articles/promo pages are generally not drawn according to a template, and the content in them is often typeset from scratch. I give a simple example with dropdown, we have 4 types of them, and not just red in some, blue in others, but differ in the markup itself and some have connections with other elements.
In his opinion, I should take the standard dropdown component from Bootstrap and style it for all views by adding my own unique classes. I say that this is nonsense, it's not only customization of styles, but also markup + possibly JS, why do it through the ass when you can just make your own components. Moreover, the layout is built according to BEM naming, and Bootstrap with its classes in the global visibility zone will ruin everything, plus it will break the file organization.
In general, I don’t know how to hammer it into him that it’s not right to use it in our project.
What other good arguments against Bootstrap can be made so that a non- coder understands?

Answer 1

I have experience in deep customization of Bootstrap. It was a stupid idea.
A monster was born that pissed off the pros and combined the cons of both approaches (a popular framework vs a custom bike).
Having greatly changed Bootstrap, they kill:
- its updates and bug fixes
- compatibility with third-party plugins
- low threshold for new people to enter
- the ability to google solutions in case of bugs
But this is also not a self-written bicycle, because it is strongly tied to the original architecture. That is, there is no complete freedom and flexibility inherent in custom solutions. Of course, there is no smell of BEM there either, which is where the big problems with independence come from.
Bootstrap should be used either as is, or with minimal styling skins on top.

Answer 2

I think such people are confused by the word framework. They are used to the fact that in serious programming languages ​​this is good and right, but they forget that CSS is more of a design tool than a programming tool. Here, this word is more appropriate to call a grid or reset-file, but not this heap of poorly implemented styles. Let's be honest: Bootstrap is too clumsy. And the more complex the design of the layout, the more clumsy the layout turns out, because you already start to fight with the bootstrap itself, trying to force it to take the required form. Your team lead, I'm almost sure - backender) They are usually famous for their love of bootstrap) I can only advise to join forces with the designer, as he will probably also have to calm down his artistic talent and live within the "framework".

Answer 3

Do other programmers have questions about the competencies of your new team leader? What other advantages, besides lowering the entry threshold, does your team lead bring when switching to bootstrap? How long does it take for a beginner to understand your layout to get into the process? How often is the team leader going to hire new people (if diving into your styles takes at least a week for a person who is not familiar with bam, then what's the point of changing technologies)?
It's hard to say something without knowing your competence levels with the team leader. You may have cycled where you could really add custom styles. In this case, you should listen to the team lead and turn over the project. You can test it by giving the team lead a component that definitely can't be implemented in standard bootstrap markup and asking them to implement it using only styles. If he does, you will have a reason to think about improving your skills under his wing. If not, you can raise the issue of his competence with the authorities, especially if other programmers in your company have the same story with the team lead. Along the way, outline to the authorities how many man-hours the company will cost the desire of an incompetent team leader to correct the project where it is not necessary and what difficulties this will cause. But this is the case

Answer 4

toaster is not about controversy.
????

Answer 5

Just as he doesn’t know the layout like you do, you also don’t know the terms of the project and what is required from the team lead, you always need to remember what is required from him in the first place - solving a business problem and deadlines. It is always useful to have some kind of visual “substrate” so that, in case of violation of the deadlines, you can close your eyes to something and do it “so far”. Nothing prevents you from using bootstrap and, in those places where your component is completely provided with independent styles and scripts, your own styles (not mixed with bootstrap). And the bootstrap, in this case, will simply serve as a "safety net for a while". And you can completely get rid of the bootstrap later, when the product is ready.

Answer 6

Show him this topic))
Customizing the framework itself is evil, it should be clear to everyone, I think. And it’s not always possible to correctly build your styles over it, especially if you are talking about the difference in layout. Bootstrap components are still not very versatile. And your bike will be much more difficult for any beginner to correct than self-writing.
I'm not against bootstrap, but everything has to be justified. In your case, it would be logical to pull out only the grid.
Are you the only layout designer? Are there frontends?

Answer 7

I will answer you as a team leader, your team leader is 100%
right. Here you need to understand the specifics of each employee.
The main thing for a manager is to sell, he is not particularly interested in how it will be realized.
The main thing for Dizik is to get rid of him and he doesn’t give a shit how you will then typeset it under the grid.
He understands that there is a workbench there, but he doesn’t give a damn about it. As a result, and that the main thing is to think about it, the quality of the project as a whole suffers, since jambs begin to be laid already at the stage of layout, caused by the unwillingness of the dizik to learn layout.
Now you repeat the same thing, worsening the work, and on your part it also has justification, you deeply customized the bootstrap, and in the ideal case you would refuse it because the workbench always wants it that way.
As a result, you want to get a valid BAM layout and that's it.
Proger, in turn, should inject your art and it will not always be crooked, since there is a sequence of filter components, etc., in the ideal, both you and dizik should have known the engine and how one or the other works on it, and draw, for example, the number of elements in the section after the smart filter (if Bitrix) or you have to push the pool to raise it. But then again, neither you nor he does it. Proger, in turn, overwrites this or, as they implement it, 99% will do it on a delayed function, because it is interesting for him to actually display the numbers and then it becomes boring.
Well, yes, the site also has users, those who use it, these are content managers, there are hundreds of hours of their work and maybe thousands, and the cost of these works determines the cost of the entire site, which neither you nor the dizik proger think about. As a result, the task of Team Lead to make the site as cheap as possible becomes unrealizable.
Because the content does not know the layout. And if it is still realistic to teach them the bootstrap, then alas, there is no full-fledged "quality" typesetting.
Therefore, it is necessary to pull on all minor edits much like a more expensive workbench. including elementary landings, etc.
So from the point of view of a person who sees, not part of his work, but the entire project.
Your team lead is quite adequate.
Also don't forget about
documentation (what you do not do) consequently ease of entry of a new employee into the project.
The site is constantly (shitty) after the release, and this can not be done, the task of the team is also to slow down this process, and delay the refactoring of the project as far as possible. And here standardization for the sake of quality is much cooler than you think. And finally, the productivity of employees. A stuffed hand gives more efficiency. When all projects are unique, it takes more time and more expertise. as a result, more money.

Answer 8

say that the site loading speed will decrease if full bootsprap is used

Answer 9

I am a programmer!
I will add my IMHO:
I understand you that you want freedom. And I understand the programmer that he doesn’t really want to rewrite or develop an adaptation for your custom from scratch. especially since 70+ screens is a lot. But if you imagine that your work is 1x hours, then the work of programmers can be many times more.
And here decide whether to write to you, bending under his conditions, or bending to a team of programmers, wasting a lot of time. All the same, the design changes less often than the code inside.
Personally, I am against customization by cutting out the excess and fixing the other for my needs.

Answer 10

In my opinion, Bootstrap is cool for programmers to nail a site so that it doesn't look like a dead ostrich site ( www.stroustrup.com ).
And if there is already a coder on the project, then if he leaves, it is cheaper to redesign the entire project from scratch than to fight Bootstrap with an existing coder. Yes, and a normal IDE with classes will prompt.
There is also an option, throw out the designer and then just type everything together on Bootstrap )))))
PS I'm not a coder, and initially I liked Bootstrap because you can take it and make it beautiful right away. But then I had to do something for my friends myself, and they had no money for layout. It's some kind of cap! Some wild crap constantly comes up there, perhaps if I were a layout designer, I knew all Bootstrap thoroughly and what it grows from, but at the level of basic knowledge of this tool, it quickly starts to interfere more than help.